Gold & Silver Forum - Red Spots on GOLD?

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Red Spots on GOLD?

Tried searching and found my answer so I thought I'd share my findings with those who are interested.

I have a 1/10 Gold Panda that has red spots all over one side. I just noticed it while taking inventory the other day. The spots are very small and in the hundreds I'd say. It looks like a brite red rash.

I read someone(the skeptic) mentioning it the other day on a 1oz coin and so I gave google a click.

I tried to post a pic of mine but my camera's macro feature sucks like an old Electrolux.

Here it is anyway-

Quote:

Red Spots on Gold Coins
"Red Spot" sounds like a plant disease you would hear about on a gardening programme, but apparently it is a phenomenon well known to all of the world's mints.
Is Red Spot Bad?
Quite honestly it's not something that we tend to think of as bad. We believe that the existence of detail, and lack or wear is more important than an amount of colour change, but we are all different, and an individual is entitled to dislike red spot appearing on his gold coins, and to reject coins, other than pure bullion coins, which exhibit evidence of red spot.

What Causes Red Spots
Red spot can occur on almost any gold coin, it certainly happens on 22 carat gold coins. We have never seen it on .999(9) fine gold coins, and presume it is virtually impossible for it to occur on fine gold.
From our knowledge of metallurgy, we can tell you that when gold is alloyed, usually with copper or copper and silver, the alloying is obviously done in the molten state, and then has to cool. During cooling, crystalisation occurs, the crystal forming around "seeds" which are molecules of the elemental metals. There is a slight tendency for the elements with the highest melting point to start to crystalise first, and this can lead to small localised areas with slightly higher or lower concentrations of the constituent elements. In ternary alloys (three elements) three pairs of binary (two elements) alloys can also form. These areas of variable alloy are usually of microscopic proportion, but can sometimes be large enough to be visually discernable.
Copper oxidises and forms other salts fairly readily whereas gold is almost completely inert, and silver lies in between, although it is fairly unreactive. This means that if some parts of the alloy are copper rich, and are exposed on the surface of the coin, then it is possible for these parts to exhibit toning or tarnishing. The red spots are areas with a higher copper content, and as copper is a red coloured metal, this shows itself in an area which is less yellow and more red than the rest of the coin. If this area subsequently tarnishes, it would almost certainly go towards a deeper red or brown colour. Whenever we have seen red spot, it has always been an area about the size of a pinhead, sometimes with more than one spot on a coin.

Is There A Cure For Red Spot?
Yes, red spot can be removed from coins. We do not recommend the collector or amateur to try this for themselves at home, at least not without taking a few precautions. If in any doubt, do not try. We disclaim any responsibility for accidents or other problems which may arise.

Method
Wear protective goggles, and work in a well ventilated space, with a supply of cold water. Ensure there is a handy supply of sodium bicarbonate (bicarbonate of soda). Place the coin in a shallow glass dish or saucer. Carefully pour some concentrated strong acid (nitric is probably best) onto the coin. Do not drop the coin into the acid. Ensure the coin is immersed in the acid, and leave it for some time, depending on ambient temperature, the strength of the acid, and the alloy. If you left the coin with the spotted side up, you should be able to see when the spotting has disappeared. The spots will usually disappear within an hour or two, but the coin will not normally come to any harm if left in the acid for a few days. If you leave coin in the acid, ensure that nobody else will accidentally find it and attempt to move or handle it. A locked poison cupboard or fume cupboard would be a sensible precaution.
When you think the red spots have disappeared, neutralise the acid by adding sodium bicarbonate either in powder or in solution very carefully. The care is needed to avoid splashing any of the acid. Normal advice is to add acid to solution for safety reasons, but this will risk your coin dropping and causing splashing. Be sure to add more than enough sodium bicarbonate, you will know when the acid is neutralised because the effervescence (fizzing) will stop. Before handling the coin, ensure that any acid on its underside had been neutralised. It will then be safe to dispose of the remaining liquid.
If you splash any acid, use plenty of the sodium bicarbonate to neutralise the spill.
Rinse and dry the coin carefully. When drying, avoid rubbing the coin, it should be dabbed dry, or blown dry using an air or steam blower. Drying the coin evenly without leaving any trace is probably the most difficult part of this whole process.

Why Does This Work?
The acid will react with the copper or copper-rich area and dissolve it. Normally this will not leave any noticeable trace on the coin, although it is theoretically possible that if the area was large, then this process could leave a depression on the coin's surface.
Although we do not clean coins often, we have used this process quite successfully on a number of occasions with complete success, this includes proof coins. From memory we have only used it on high carat gold, such as 22 carat (91.66% gold), or 900 fine (90% gold). There is no reason it should not work on lower carat golds. Fortunately most "real" coins are made of high carat gold, although some "cheap" collector's coins are made of 18, 14, 12, or even 9 carat gold alloys. There is some danger with lower carat gold alloys that the acid would attack the whole coin, so we suggest you test first on a non-valuable sample. Again it follows that most of the more valuable gold coins are made of high carat rather than low carat alloys.

Avoid Aqua Regia
Aqua regia is a mixture of hydrochloric and nitric acids, it is used to dissolve gold. Obviously do not use it to remove red spot as it will remove your coin as well

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Interesting article, thanks!

About a year ago I was at a coin shop and saw a St. Guadens coin with red spots. The dealer wanted $950 for the coin. Spot was in the mid $800 range if I remember correctly. I passed on the deal because of the red spots.

Looking back..I really wish I would have pulled the trigger on that one.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Thanks for the explanation Misty! I collect Sunshine gold rounds and some are 999 and some are 9999. The 999 coins are from the 80's and most all of them have some tiny brown spots on them. My coin guy said the spots are caused by the missing 9.:smile:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I once saw a Canadian Maple leaf that had a red spot on it about this big. . Even .999 leaves .001 impure. The dealer acted like it was no big deal. I didn't buy it.

Ms

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

interesting article, thanks much!

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

From my understanding that is called "red rust". Meaning that the gold and the copper were not equally mixed in the coin. The copper imbalance makes the red spots appear. From what I read, it does not detract from the value of old coins.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I have a couple of CML's with the red spots. I will sell them first when the time comes.

I also have a CML with some kind of red streak running across the body. I have not examined it very closely, but to the naked eye it almost looks like a mark from a (red) Sharpie.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I have seen this phenomenon on Chinese Pandas.
~Sparticus

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RatHoler (Post 2083508)

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Canadian Maple Leafs supposed to be at least 99 % pure? I was talking about the old Pre 1933 gold coins minted in the U.S. in my post. I wouldn't think they would get the rust spots if they were as advertised. It's always a base metal that discolors like that.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I've had the opposite situation, sold some 1 oz Buffalos to a dealer with a red spot and they gave me the same price for the coins with and without the red spots. And ever since I haven't worried about my bullion having red spots.

But I wouldn't want the nice proof coins I have to develop these red spots.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick (Post 2083518)

You're right about the purity, but mine still have the marks. As a matter of fact, two of mine that have some markings are .9999 pure. I hope they're not fakes. I received one of them from a very reputable online dealer.

I don't have a digital camera to post pics, but I will, if I acquire a camera for Christmas:)

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RatHoler (Post 2083576)

I saw the spots on my US Mint Buffalos that were supposed to be "pure" gold.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumpOgold (Post 2083587)

I saw the spots on my US Mint Buffalos that were supposed to be "pure" gold.

Isn't the whole coin supposed to be "pure" gold? :dontknow:

EDIT: Bonehead response, misinterpreted your post first time around. I read it just now and it makes perfect sense. Duh.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RatHoler (Post 2083576)

Good luck to you. Your coins should be pure. Pure gold don't rust. In this day an age, I don't what else to say. I mean eveything seems to be a scam.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Does tungsten rust?:tomato::dontknow:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

These spots are caused when silver and gold are minted at the same location. A proper mint only does one or the other but not both at the same facility.

The silver particles contaminate gold. No amount of dust control is good enough.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...6133436AA6lQR2

What are two chemical properties of tungsten? and does tungsten rust?
for my sci hmwrk
10 months ago (Tiebreaker)

Answerer 1
It doesn't "rust" as such, but it does corrode very very slowly. It's pretty unreactive. Oh, and it has a very very high melting point.10 months ago
Sign

HS red spots? Just kidding. The TUNGSTEN bars which were found by the Chinese in Hong Kong from the American depository - were 400 OUNCE babies - 27.4 POUNDS

Like in Die Hard III - you know in the New York FED, right? Tungsten also screws-up the gold in the melting pot kinda makes it CHEESY because it melts at a higher temp. so it makes it real LUMPY.

That's how the CHINESE found it, right?

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

You Tube

:signs14:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I have a few Saints from the 1907-1930 era and they have COPPER spots on them. NOT red though - copper colored like a old penny.

:23_1_22::moon:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HistoryStudent (Post 2083667)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfAgBeFKoUQ

:signs14:

HS, are you suggesting we bash our gold coins with a hammer? to see if they pass the tungsten ring test?

I could try this on a UHR, if it flattens like a pancake...yipppeee! It's real gold. :36_1_34:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoatingAccident (Post 2083858)

Lol...like throwing a witch in the river...if she drowns to death she was innocent? :no_ma:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Thanks for the replies all. Glad to see this is fairly widespread ad not a big deal.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I certainly don't recommend fiddling with nasty acids unless you know a few things and have proper equipment to handle nasty acids. You really don't need them. You can rub the surface with any acid, even vegetable juice, and it will restore the surface to a gold color. This is called "Aztec plating" because the Aztecs made a lot of alloy statues and treated them this way to make them appear to be solid gold. (And the conquistadors hanged some of them for doing it. They would only accept pure gold.)

Or you can simply ignore the spots. Everybody knows Chinese coins are prone to have spots and it's not a big deal.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I have spoken to this very issue with mint owners. It is what I would call cross pollination of metals.

Nothing to worry about really other than aesthetics.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I have three 1/10 oz phils bought last year that have red spots on them.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

From what I understand, at 99.99% purity, there should be no copper on CML's. A very complex process is used to go from 99.9% to 99.99% and at no point is copper mixed in.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Curious, I've accumulated quite a few different variants now and I have yet to see a single red spot, not on my age old krugerrands, sovereigns or the 24k coins.:confused_m:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jellydonut (Post 2084048)

Curious, I've accumulated quite a few different variants now and I have yet to see a single red spot, not on my age old krugerrands, sovereigns or the 24k coins.:confused_m:

Krugerrands seem to be immune to spotting, I have them back to 1967, 1975 and on and none show spots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beeyourself (Post 2084049)

Looks like Bee is spot on, I don't think any silver is processed at the Rand refinery, or at the suisse refinerys either.:ok:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeYourself (Post 2083637)

US gold eagles are 22K gold alloyed with copper and silver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_gold

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Don't the CMLs and other 24K coins have some kind of non-gold finish, kind of like a protective layer?

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Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossL (Post 2084167)

US gold eagles are 22K gold alloyed with copper and silver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_gold

Which would explain why they spot. Recently a seller on ebay had MS 70 1 oz eagles in the capsules for sale that were red blotched, not just pinhead spots. He was open about it and I think they all sold.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

For some odd reason I had a dream last night that all of my gold coins were red spotted... thanks, newmisty...

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Relax, the reddish [brown] spots are oxidation. Silver gets it and it turns black. What's that you say, how come all your coins don't have it?
Because all your coins where not in the same AIR, that's in the one
with the spots. I think it's sulfur that causes it, but it will polish out
or clean off. But you said not to polish or clean your coins.
That's right except when you start to complain about spots than clean it.
If not just live with it. Coins get it as well they call it toning.
How come some silver is black & others are real bright shinny?
Both are pure Silver, but the one that's black was oxidizes from the certain air.
Gold same thing.
It will clean off.
TomExxtra

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Gold does not oxidize.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I got a 1 oz buffalo proof from the mint with a red spot. I sent it back and they replaced it.

It looked more like a die or something. The orange spots on the old pre-1933's are different. I don't buy anything with either problem. Of course, anymore, I don't buy anything at all, anyway.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 2084209)

For some odd reason I had a dream last night that all of my gold coins were red spotted... thanks, newmisty...

Don't worry TONIGHT you'll be dreaming that all your gold is really tungsten - like in Fort Tungsten Knox...

:111::111:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLV>GLD (Post 2084225)

Gold does not oxidize.

And TUNGSTEN corrodes (slowly)!

http://www.swe.org/iac/LP/corro_03.html

Corrosion is reddish/brown ....

Guess what????

:thumb.aspx::signs14::23_30_104::23_30_104:

Okay I want to warn the Boaters with GOLD (maybe tungsten too)

from google:

The effects of tungsten within the environment are essentially unknown, a concern that has arisen in response to increasingly widespread use of the material as a fishing sinker, some of which are inevitably lost into water bodies. The same unknown variable applies whenever tungsten may be deposited into the environment, either knowingly or inadvertently.[43]

So quit sailing around with gold in the boat right?

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

(red spots) :thumb.aspx:Rust: The reddish brittle coating that forms on iron which has reacted with moist air; steel has a brown rust and zinc a white rust.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Here is a good example with good photos on eBay, PCGS MS70.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Looks like it will affect price quite a bit. $1260 on these with cashback. Only 18,606 minted.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo1 (Post 2084483)

Why buy something CHEAP when comes the time(s) to sell it MIGHT NOT?

(SELL that is, right?) :signs14::thumb.aspx:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo1 (Post 2084483)

Why buy something CHEAP when comes the times to sell it MIGHT NOT?

(SELL that is, right?) :signs14::thumb.aspx:

I'm sorry I forgot about the BIGGER fool theory - that is there is always a BIGGER fool than the fool that first buys it, right?

Yeah, like times will not never perhaps maybe get one hell of a lot worse?

That's the BIGGEST fool theory............:36_3_16:

Next year we'll see the 20% unemployment hit twice that - and GDP fall another 50% - look who the biggest fools put in
congress and in the executive branch - who's packing the Supreme Court - we're really screwed....

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I think you folks are picky, picky, picky!!! LOL!!
But then again, if I was willing to pay the outrageous premimums on GAE's I probably woulden't want them to be spotty either.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by immanti (Post 2084044)

From what I understand, at 99.99% purity, there should be no copper on CML's. A very complex process is used to go from 99.9% to 99.99% and at no point is copper mixed in.

Three nines purity still allows 1/1000 part contamination. The spots are not mixed in, they are picked up on the surface. Even at four nines, the spots would not affect the purity.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RatHoler (Post 2083576)

Here is what I speak of. It is one my coins. I think it looks sort of pretty, like makeup on a lady. I hope you get your digital camera!

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Am I the only GIM board member who can't see a tiny red spot on any of the coins shown or linked to in this thread? I *very* colorblind and even though I can clearly see the difference between red and gold I can't see tiny dots of red on gold. Doh :favorites21:!

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

My picture is very poor(crap camera) and is on a tiny 1/10 coin.

These are more visable-
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rwOMiyBQiB...ts+example.jpg
http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/images/...onesrev400.jpg

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpthnsolo (Post 2086651)

Do you have a black and white monitor?

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Check out the bottom of the hammer handle, Red Spot!!:Surrender:
Attachment 84348

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Here's a Martha Washington First Spouse coin with a red spot.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I'm begining to think we all got tungsten!!Or we're being scanned by bombers!!!

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irons (Post 2088003)

I'm begining to think we all got tungsten!!Or we're being scanned by bombers!!!

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

You worry to much. Red Rust on gold coins is not new.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick (Post 2088042)

You worry to much. Red Rust on gold coins is not new.

Dull Monday night, freaking out is entertaining.:yippee:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Don't mind the nanomarkers... er, red spots.

:452: :realmad: :rofl:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irons (Post 2088046)

Dull Monday night, freaking out is entertaining.:yippee:

Yes, but a lot of people would like to sleep in peace.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irons (Post 2087992)

Check out the bottom of the hammer handle, Red Spot!!:Surrender:
Attachment 84348

More red spots on 9999 bullion.

:mad_m:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Pretty much all of my Sunshine gold rounds from the 80's have small brown spots, I'm not worried about it.:dontknow:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I guess its the gold version of the silver maple 'milk spots'.

I never learned what those annoying milk spots were, though.:confused_m:

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I've never heard of that, but I do have what looks to be milk spots on a Merc Dime.

Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

Don't worry everyone. The red spots is a disease, it's contagious and will spread from coin to coin in your collection.

The good news is that the government is working on a vaccine. All you need to do is send them your coins, and the government will take care of it.

(you'll get your coins back, honest) You can trust the government. :yes:

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Re: Red Spots on GOLD?

I heard that a torch could be used to eliminate these spots. Has anyone else heard that or tried it?